Obsidian Conflict Forums

I was thinking the other day, whats the difference between a single player map and a good co-op map. I could think of a few things, but I imagine some of you have more ideas.

In my opinion a good co-op level has the following:

Multiplayer specific puzzles, i.e. using two inputs that are that far apart that a single player could not activate them both at the same time (which is required for the level).

Greatly above single player difficulty - you're gonna need backup to take on the amount of enemies in a good co-op level.

Limited healing points/entities - the player provided healing kit should be used as much as possible, we need each other to beat the level.

If you think of anything else add them here!

Have just as much puzzles as npc killing... and make the npc health alot. Also make sure the npcs dont just spawn in front of you, have them rappel or get dropped off or something nifty.

nefarious wrote:Have just as much puzzles as npc killing... and make the npc health alot. Also make sure the npcs dont just spawn in front of you, have them rappel or get dropped off or something nifty.

Well they're more to do with good mapping techniques, spawning npcs in front of a player is one of my pet hates, unless of course its done with a little panache, i.e. teleporting them in.

Yeah have them teleport in with a sprite looks nice as well.

Skidz's oc_freezingpoint has another nice example of how to bring spawned npcs into the map - by using assualt points past a player_clip brush, with the actual spawning out of sight around a corner.

A good co-op map needs a few things:

-Some sort of teamwork

-Activities beyond just shooting enemies

-MORE enemies in creative ways, as opposed to 1 really strong enemy

-Objectives based on a consistant theme

-"Glass is half empty" point of view when testing and mapping


Teamwork needs to be the focus. A co-op mod should have players working together. Commonly, this is translated as: "Shoot, shoot, shoot some more, shoot more, shoot shoot shoot shoot and then end the level. These maps get frequently tiresome, unless designed properly. Puzzles are nice, and many different options are available in the source engine, but puzzles aren't neccessarily teamwork, they're just a pain, and once someone has figured it out, they no longer find it a challenge.

Another thing to concentrate on is health levels of enemies. We have all played games where we fight some human military character, and he survives 25 shots to the head from a railgun. I mean... c'mon... A garg sure, a zombie, ok. But a combine soldier is essentially a human wrapped in clothes and a breath mask. Taking 4 crossbow bolts to the head is just stupid. So, make more enemies, but not too many to lag. Design the map and/or limit weapons to make them nearly impossible for 1 player, but a decent challenge for 3 or more.

Keep challenges and objectives within reason of the theme. I was playing a HORRIBLE sven-coop map called sc_halo. It had NOTHING to do with halo, and then halfway through the G-man started showing up. WHAT does the GMAN have to do with HALO? I mean... really... If your map is silly, keep it silly. If it's realistic, keep it realistic. If it's sci-fi, don't add antlions to a battle between combine and humans on a spaceship.

And the "glass is half empty" mentality. Design your ents, your geometry, and everything in your map so it's prepared for players that are being a jackass. 1 player frequently will exploit a map problem to screw over all his teammates, or perhaps he just don't know any better. One of the worst things to hear about a map you made is to overhear players chatting something like: "Dont press that button before we get to the garg!.... Oh YOU IDIOT!"



So basically, there are no rules. I've seen some of the most fun maps out there break rules. But one of the biggest things to keep in mind is this is NOT HL1.

Badly lit areas, square rooms, doors that merge into themselves and broken sequences MAY have passed in HL1, but HL2 is so advanced and has so many features that it's just sad to see that kind of thing anymore.

And that's my two cents.

As usual some great comments from Hickadam

Hickadam wrote:A good co-op map needs a few things:

-Some sort of teamwork

-Activities beyond just shooting enemies

-MORE enemies in creative ways, as opposed to 1 really strong enemy

-Objectives based on a consistant theme

-"Glass is half empty" point of view when testing and mapping


Teamwork needs to be the focus. A co-op mod should have players working together. Commonly, this is translated as: "Shoot, shoot, shoot some more, shoot more, shoot shoot shoot shoot and then end the level. These maps get frequently tiresome, unless designed properly. Puzzles are nice, and many different options are available in the source engine, but puzzles aren't neccessarily teamwork, they're just a pain, and once someone has figured it out, they no longer find it a challenge.

Yeah this is one of the toughest choices for a mapper I think - puzzles or shooting? or both? what kinds of puzzles? I've currently got a few ideas in my head about making some puzzles with a random element to them, in the coming weeks I'll try and stick a map together with a few of them in.

Hickadam wrote:Another thing to concentrate on is health levels of enemies. We have all played games where we fight some human military character, and he survives 25 shots to the head from a railgun. I mean... c'mon... A garg sure, a zombie, ok. But a combine soldier is essentially a human wrapped in clothes and a breath mask. Taking 4 crossbow bolts to the head is just stupid. So, make more enemies, but not too many to lag. Design the map and/or limit weapons to make them nearly impossible for 1 player, but a decent challenge for 3 or more.

Totally agree, I've seen a few maps where a combine soldier can take several rockets to the face and quite frankly, it just feels cheap. I'd like to think you can make a level more difficult through the strategic use of certain enemies in certain areas. black headcrabs are a favourite of mine, especially in relatively dark areas, players are all to aware of the threat they represent and combined with another enemy such as a fastzombie it can really ramp the difficulty up without actually modifying the oppositions health points. Enemy placement is very important, using shotgun combines in closed spaces instead of vanilla combines. In more open areas using fastzombies or poison zombies instead of normal ones. It all adds up.

Hickadam wrote:Keep challenges and objectives within reason of the theme. I was playing a HORRIBLE sven-coop map called sc_halo. It had NOTHING to do with halo, and then halfway through the G-man started showing up. WHAT does the GMAN have to do with HALO? I mean... really... If your map is silly, keep it silly. If it's realistic, keep it realistic. If it's sci-fi, don't add antlions to a battle between combine and humans on a spaceship.

I think this can be put down to general mapping etiquette. I think people just run out of ideas and just try and cram one of every monster into a level sometimes, yeah it adds variety to the enemies you're fighthing, but it doesn't do anything for the plausability of your level, not mentioning damaging your reputation as a good mapper.

Hickadam wrote:And the "glass is half empty" mentality. Design your ents, your geometry, and everything in your map so it's prepared for players that are being a jackass. 1 player frequently will exploit a map problem to screw over all his teammates, or perhaps he just don't know any better. One of the worst things to hear about a map you made is to overhear players chatting something like: "Dont press that button before we get to the garg!.... Oh YOU IDIOT!"

Yup, we've all seen it. From using floor turrets to kill your team mates to gibbing them in lift doors its all there somewhere. To counter it you need to another person to playtest your level, there will always be things you've missed. Luckily I have a close friend who loves to annoy fellow players in games like this and he'll come in very useful for once...

Hickadam wrote:So basically, there are no rules. I've seen some of the most fun maps out there break rules. But one of the biggest things to keep in mind is this is NOT HL1.

Badly lit areas, square rooms, doors that merge into themselves and broken sequences MAY have passed in HL1, but HL2 is so advanced and has so many features that it's just sad to see that kind of thing anymore.

I think Vasili nicely summed up how not to make a HL2 level with his previous efforts. Anyone attempting HL2 mapping should be sure to download a few of his maps and decompile them and take an oath never to repeat his mistakes.

I posted a map idea like this where You have certain time before more reinforcements for combine come and you hafta do a run through and try to escape from the combine heartland before they catch up with you if you check that link out.

It should not look like shit

destu wrote:It should not look like shit

skidz wrote:

destu wrote:It should not look like shit

You should not put in HDR if it is going to make everything glow bright white (I'm looking at you, WGH.).

Askaris wrote:You should not put in HDR if it is going to make everything glow bright white (I'm looking at you, WGH.).

I think Fox was a naughty boy and didn't build his cubemaps before distributing his map.

There was some problem with the cubemaps so they wouldnt build propertly. Its been fixed in the next patch.

Also fox, theres quite a few problems with your map... like areas with no walls or walls with blank areas.