Thanks!Ratford wrote:This map is brilliant
Return to City 17
-
DaMaN
- npc_combinegunship
- Posts: 782
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:03 am
- Location: Parent's Basement
- Contact:
Current projects: Return to City 17 and Rising Dead
Also, check out my Blag: http://daman-amappersworld.blogspot.com/
Also, check out my Blag: http://daman-amappersworld.blogspot.com/
Europe mirrors in bzip2 format:
http://oc.srcds.neic0.de/maps/oc_return_c17_01.bsp.bz2
http://oc.srcds.neic0.de/maps/oc_return_c17_02.bsp.bz2
http://oc.srcds.neic0.de/maps/oc_return_c17_03.bsp.bz2
(Use winrar to unzip the files)
http://oc.srcds.neic0.de/maps/oc_return_c17_01.bsp.bz2
http://oc.srcds.neic0.de/maps/oc_return_c17_02.bsp.bz2
http://oc.srcds.neic0.de/maps/oc_return_c17_03.bsp.bz2
(Use winrar to unzip the files)
-
DaMaN
- npc_combinegunship
- Posts: 782
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:03 am
- Location: Parent's Basement
- Contact:
AddedW0rf0x wrote:Europe mirrors in bzip2 format:
http://oc.srcds.neic0.de/maps/oc_return_c17_01.bsp.bz2
http://oc.srcds.neic0.de/maps/oc_return_c17_02.bsp.bz2
http://oc.srcds.neic0.de/maps/oc_return_c17_03.bsp.bz2
(Use winrar to unzip the files)
Current projects: Return to City 17 and Rising Dead
Also, check out my Blag: http://daman-amappersworld.blogspot.com/
Also, check out my Blag: http://daman-amappersworld.blogspot.com/
This map is so different from most of the other oc maps I know. Now that I played it multiple times, this is my feedback:
Pro's:
-Great look. You could have gotten more out of the Displacements but overall it looks nice because there's a whole lot of detail in it.
-Storyline. Most maps are like "story? kill teh enemies!!!!", this one has actually something to tell and comes up with some really nice objectives.
-Freedom. There's a lot to discover which isn't essentially needed to finish the map, but it's also not running around without any mission at all.
-Length: It takes some time to finish it, but it doesn't get boring at any time (at least not when you're playing it for the first time).
-Last but not least: It really feels finished, not like a beta or something.
Con's:
-It's too simple. I could do the whole thing on my own, I guess. There are just too little enemies crossing the way. Headcrabs aren't that strong, you know
. It even leads to players not feeling rewarded when they find a hidden crate, because they don't need the content at all
-There could be more parts with really hot action. The big momma is a nice example for what I mean: Scenes that you look forward to because they are really special (and harder than the rest, of course).
-I didn't recognize much custom content in it. You don't need to create every single texture on your own, that would be silly. But throwing in some selfmade things here and there can really spice things up.
-Performance is not thaaat good sometimes, but it doesnt really matter because it stays playable.
-One or two additional weapons would have made fighting the enemies a bit more interesting.
I hold you in high esteem for finishing this. It's good.
Pro's:
-Great look. You could have gotten more out of the Displacements but overall it looks nice because there's a whole lot of detail in it.
-Storyline. Most maps are like "story? kill teh enemies!!!!", this one has actually something to tell and comes up with some really nice objectives.
-Freedom. There's a lot to discover which isn't essentially needed to finish the map, but it's also not running around without any mission at all.
-Length: It takes some time to finish it, but it doesn't get boring at any time (at least not when you're playing it for the first time).
-Last but not least: It really feels finished, not like a beta or something.
Con's:
-It's too simple. I could do the whole thing on my own, I guess. There are just too little enemies crossing the way. Headcrabs aren't that strong, you know
. It even leads to players not feeling rewarded when they find a hidden crate, because they don't need the content at all -There could be more parts with really hot action. The big momma is a nice example for what I mean: Scenes that you look forward to because they are really special (and harder than the rest, of course).
-I didn't recognize much custom content in it. You don't need to create every single texture on your own, that would be silly. But throwing in some selfmade things here and there can really spice things up.
-Performance is not thaaat good sometimes, but it doesnt really matter because it stays playable.
-One or two additional weapons would have made fighting the enemies a bit more interesting.
I hold you in high esteem for finishing this. It's good.
Yeppers Daman,
You truly do have a gift for this kind of stuff.
If not already, have you considered pursuing a career in level design?
I'm certain with a little professional polishing you could be a very valuable asset.
You truly do have a gift for this kind of stuff.
If not already, have you considered pursuing a career in level design?
I'm certain with a little professional polishing you could be a very valuable asset.
I will spit right in your fraking face.
How does it taste? After the lips are sealed below your waist,
You will never frak again.
How does it taste? After the lips are sealed below your waist,
You will never frak again.
I have the same basic feedback to give.
Visually it is jaw dropping. I have always hoped someone would make maps like this, with a story, characters, like an actual epic co-op experience, and in that sense, this is very promising.
My problems are that it is very slow on the action. Most of the maps is beautiful landscape, but there is no purpose in exploring it. The coast you created is truly gorgeous, but going on there only gets you an antlion filled death, and a long walk back. It kind of felt like playing HL2 in OC, long walks and fights that are really easy for more than 1 person. I walked for 10 minutes, found an ammo crate, got excited, and only got 1 battery.
Although very cool, there is no point in the boat. Players cant ride on it, and then they bitch that you left them behind.
Basically, keep the basic structure of the maps the same, but give the players more stuff to do. Make the gameplay match the visuals, because I can say wit complete certainty this is the prettiest co-op map I have ever laid eyes on. The maps seem kind of short when all is said and done, so have puzzles that players need to work together to solve, enemies they need to work together to kill. Make the map take longer to complete. Boost the difficulty, perhaps throw in some combine resistance along with the xen creatures. (I love the HL1 style teleporting, btw.) Put secrets that are worth finding. Reward players who choose to explore every nook and cranny of the coast. Throw in some epic battles. I have confidence that this can become the best co-op map (maps) ever.
Visually it is jaw dropping. I have always hoped someone would make maps like this, with a story, characters, like an actual epic co-op experience, and in that sense, this is very promising.
My problems are that it is very slow on the action. Most of the maps is beautiful landscape, but there is no purpose in exploring it. The coast you created is truly gorgeous, but going on there only gets you an antlion filled death, and a long walk back. It kind of felt like playing HL2 in OC, long walks and fights that are really easy for more than 1 person. I walked for 10 minutes, found an ammo crate, got excited, and only got 1 battery.
Although very cool, there is no point in the boat. Players cant ride on it, and then they bitch that you left them behind.
Basically, keep the basic structure of the maps the same, but give the players more stuff to do. Make the gameplay match the visuals, because I can say wit complete certainty this is the prettiest co-op map I have ever laid eyes on. The maps seem kind of short when all is said and done, so have puzzles that players need to work together to solve, enemies they need to work together to kill. Make the map take longer to complete. Boost the difficulty, perhaps throw in some combine resistance along with the xen creatures. (I love the HL1 style teleporting, btw.) Put secrets that are worth finding. Reward players who choose to explore every nook and cranny of the coast. Throw in some epic battles. I have confidence that this can become the best co-op map (maps) ever.
Steve: Yo tengo tu madre en mi pantalones, lolzo
Fire_cube: my mom is actually in MY pants
Fire_cube: youshithead
-
DaMaN
- npc_combinegunship
- Posts: 782
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:03 am
- Location: Parent's Basement
- Contact:
Thanks a huge amount for all the excellent comments/feedback/etc!! It really makes the months I spent making these maps worthwhile.
And now to address some of it!
Pros are pros, so there's not too much to discuss about them, (though I really like hearing them. They make me feel warm and fuzzy inside, like I swallowed a kitten with a fever). The more good things I hear about the maps, the more I want to improve them!
From the feedback, I get the feeling that everybody's main complaint was that it was too easy. I agree. Playing this on my own (which I was doing most of the time during development) it's difficult, but when I played on YAS with a bunch of other people, it seemed to fly past a lot faster. I certainly didn't think the Gonarch would go down in 30 seconds flat, but that's what happened when 3 people emptied their clips into it! I'm certainly going to be adjusting a few of my estimates for the future, and I'll see about re-working these maps to give a more challenging experience. (And remember - there are at least 6 more maps in the series, plenty of time to get challenging)
I'd like to keep the boat - I find it allows players to goof off a bit (*cough* W0rf0x), which I think helps the impression of inclusiveness and freedom at Green Bay. But it really needs some seats in it. That was one thing I immediately noticed when playing with W0rf0x. So, rest assured, I'll be adding some of those in.
And yea, the forklift is npc-controlled - just to add some "neatness"/aesthetic factor into the map. Though perhaps I should make a drivable one too... although that could cause too much chaos, especially with Fire_cube behind the wheel.
---
Oh, and one thing fug4life and W0rf0x mentioned is about the other two beta maps I sent out to a few people: they are not beta maps for the maps I have released in this thread! Sorry for any misunderstandings, but the two beta maps I released, while still part of the series, are further down the storyline than the first three maps here. So while I have ~6 maps left in the series, 2 of them are already mostly done, and a third and fourth are about half-way done, which hopefully means that it will take me less time to come out with the next ~6 maps as it did for me to come out with the first three.
There is a very good reason for this higgeldy-piggeldy way I've released these maps: mapping ADHD.
And yes, I have considered pursuing a career in level design, and would be ecstatic if I could get paid to do this. I'm in college right now and I'll probably be taking a co-op term in January, and I would absolutely love to get a job doing level design. Plus, I hear Vancouver has a lot of game companies there. Too bad Valve doesn't usually hire much... I wonder if they'd take a co-op student?
---
Hmmph... well... nobody seems to be playing right now... blast! I need my TF2 preorder!!
And now to address some of it!
Pros are pros, so there's not too much to discuss about them, (though I really like hearing them
. They make me feel warm and fuzzy inside, like I swallowed a kitten with a fever). The more good things I hear about the maps, the more I want to improve them!From the feedback, I get the feeling that everybody's main complaint was that it was too easy. I agree. Playing this on my own (which I was doing most of the time during development) it's difficult, but when I played on YAS with a bunch of other people, it seemed to fly past a lot faster. I certainly didn't think the Gonarch would go down in 30 seconds flat, but that's what happened when 3 people emptied their clips into it! I'm certainly going to be adjusting a few of my estimates for the future, and I'll see about re-working these maps to give a more challenging experience. (And remember - there are at least 6 more maps in the series, plenty of time to get challenging
)I'd like to keep the boat - I find it allows players to goof off a bit (*cough* W0rf0x), which I think helps the impression of inclusiveness and freedom at Green Bay. But it really needs some seats in it. That was one thing I immediately noticed when playing with W0rf0x. So, rest assured, I'll be adding some of those in.
And yea, the forklift is npc-controlled - just to add some "neatness"/aesthetic factor into the map. Though perhaps I should make a drivable one too... although that could cause too much chaos, especially with Fire_cube behind the wheel.
---
Oh, and one thing fug4life and W0rf0x mentioned is about the other two beta maps I sent out to a few people: they are not beta maps for the maps I have released in this thread! Sorry for any misunderstandings, but the two beta maps I released, while still part of the series, are further down the storyline than the first three maps here. So while I have ~6 maps left in the series, 2 of them are already mostly done, and a third and fourth are about half-way done, which hopefully means that it will take me less time to come out with the next ~6 maps as it did for me to come out with the first three.
There is a very good reason for this higgeldy-piggeldy way I've released these maps: mapping ADHD.
Thanks!Fenrir! wrote:Yeppers Daman,
You truly do have a gift for this kind of stuff.
If not already, have you considered pursuing a career in level design?
I'm certain with a little professional polishing you could be a very valuable asset.
And yes, I have considered pursuing a career in level design, and would be ecstatic if I could get paid to do this. I'm in college right now and I'll probably be taking a co-op term in January, and I would absolutely love to get a job doing level design. Plus, I hear Vancouver has a lot of game companies there. Too bad Valve doesn't usually hire much... I wonder if they'd take a co-op student?
---
Hmmph... well... nobody seems to be playing right now... blast! I need my TF2 preorder!!
Current projects: Return to City 17 and Rising Dead
Also, check out my Blag: http://daman-amappersworld.blogspot.com/
Also, check out my Blag: http://daman-amappersworld.blogspot.com/
I thought I'd pitch in at this point,
Firstly the beauty of these maps, as I recently discovered...
The geometry design speaks for itself, so onto the other stuff.
when I first played with DaMaN, W0rf0x and Neico. I played through the maps one way and then when I played a second and third time, I have to say It played a totally different way. For instance the first time round on the second map I followed the road round without even setting foot on the beach, so it was only on the third time I decided to take a wonder down and to my delight I got slaughtered by a load of antlions I din't even know was in the map.
Or the first time I saw how DaMaN completed the electricity puzzle on the first map I didn't quite see everything he did to complete the puzzle, so the second time round I had to stack boxes to get up to the first floor in the warehouse to access the roof, but I knew the suspended floor somehow dropped, It was only on the third time round I got the damn thing to drop. Even getting out of the electricity area I've seen most people climb out and jump fence, congrats to the ones who used the switch twice and walked out using the door
And thanks to TheMoon and his exploring exploits I was shown a whole secret area of a map I din't even know about, you've got to do a bit of rock climbing to get there but we were rewarded with the one round of secondary smg ammo, And a nice little bay all of our own to run around in check thing's out.
I'd like to talk about AI in general, and the difference between HL1 and HL2, years ago developers ways of making AI more difficult was to have the enemies aiming capabilities along the lines of 'godlike' as the game got harder. That changed with HL2, killing enimies in HL2 is alot easier than what it was back in HL1.
Also there are so many flaws still in HL2 for instance, take a combine soldier, give him a smg and he sprays and prays, and really you can run circles round them, give them a shotgun and you'll find their accuracy is better, normally If I have to take out a group of combine in a gun fight I take the ones with a shotty down first, cause I know they will be the first to take me down, especially if they are close and catch you on a reload. Even Valve are constatnly trying to improve their npc's (the difference in the strider from hl2 to ep1 to even well ep2) but where Valve lack the npc's they get away with it in variation of npc's over the length of the whole game and yes agreed the situations they create, in which you meet the npc in the map can make things more challenging. But In my opinion, as with all AI it has to be easy enough that you can kill it, wih the weapons you have avalible. They simply didn't allow for co-op in their games. And agreed whooping up the health isn't much fun as it kinda renders the weapons useless, RPG FTW!
Adding tons of npc's isn't that much fun either, and then your playing with the balance of action over visuals with an engine that simply wasn't designed for co-op. Left4dead is probably their first real attempt at having a multiplayer game that has good looks, and AI running about in it at the same time (4 player co-op I might add).
What I'm trying to say is it isn't easy finding that balance...
I think both DaMaN and W0rf0x have shown me that you don't need to have a ton of npc's or weapons to pull off a good map.
Ok I'm losing myself a bit here so back to DaMaN's maps.
As the man said these are only the first 3 maps, so consider how he must use the limited resources avalible over 6-9 maps, You dont wanna see the same npc's in each map? Valve don't let you to the good npc's until the game get's going. And I think the same should apply here. but I do agree that maybe there is room for either:
A) making more of whats already in, i.e more headcrabs, bullsquids, and others that are currently in, general increase the numbers for most encounters. I think the map is playable fps enough to do this, I think there is room even for a third gonarch in the final encounter.
B)Risky but maybe increasing their health a little bit more.
C)And it all depends on what is planned for other maps (I sort of know whats in two of them) but adding new npc's like what others have suggested. But the only npc's I can think of that would suit the first three maps are maybe and I stress maybe the presence of Zombies, Fast Zombies, Poison Zombies (with a compliment of headcrabs), Poison Headcrabs, Boss Antguards (maybe), Snarks in a couple of confined areas, stuff like that.
D)Because the map has this exploring element I think finding medkits is cool although it does slow down the pace of co-op play (can be a good thing) , so I think removing the oc medkit (carried medkit) for the first two, even maybe the third map would be good, and have the oc medkit introduced later when your going to really need it more. Or reduce some of the medkits lying about, or find a balance between the two...
I won't mention the forklift It's fine as it is, but I'll take my hat off to a mapper who gives you a couple of forklifts where you gotta move some boxes from a to b, as a little side objective, maybe two can drive while others stack the pallets, but to even get the forklift drivable is one thing to make it lift stuff another and the pallets would need re-modelling altogether,.... In other words forget it!
The boat, It should stay, oh yes boat, boat, boat!
I'd prefer to have it than not, even if this means adding pods for the passengers to strap them selves in aswell, I know it's not totally realistic, but its the fun factor that wins in this situation.
Having played two of the other maps (only in beta so they may have changed since I last played) You really need to look at all the maps as part of a series, and I know thing's spice up as you go along, and I know that things become a lot more challenging and fun combat wise. You really have more to look forward to in terms of diverse gameplay, aswell as the high standard of geometry!
The main heart ache with this series is that for now you have to make do with the story line in text and not using faceposer and lipsync'ing like he originally planned, I pray that both DaMaN and Hickadam get there wishes and Valve or whoever fixes this.
DaMaN btw if you want I'll let you know all the places I've managed to sneak into the sky box through climbing and serious off route exploring, Although none of them affect gameplay or are obvious, but if you wanted to crack down on allowing people to wonder. I'll let you know where some clipping is needed. And a couple of gfx glitches I spotted although barely noticeable...
Having roughly seen 5 of the maps (which are all still to be tweaked to perfection) I can say that this series (as Fire_cube says) is...Truly Epic!
[fug steps down from soap box and filters quietly back in to the crowd]
EDIT: can't help myself just wanted to say, I also loved the skill puzzles (jumps etc) and I loved the looping areas of the maps, I think there is just the right amount of both in, Back to AI maybe some npcs like the houndeyes would benefit from having a couple of bullsquids present in the encounter.
and finally if you do get face poser working, If your after a voice actor for charles,.... can I apply? I have my middle name as charles? although I'm english not sure if my english voice is what your after , but who knows
Firstly the beauty of these maps, as I recently discovered...
The geometry design speaks for itself, so onto the other stuff.
when I first played with DaMaN, W0rf0x and Neico. I played through the maps one way and then when I played a second and third time, I have to say It played a totally different way. For instance the first time round on the second map I followed the road round without even setting foot on the beach, so it was only on the third time I decided to take a wonder down and to my delight I got slaughtered by a load of antlions I din't even know was in the map.
Or the first time I saw how DaMaN completed the electricity puzzle on the first map I didn't quite see everything he did to complete the puzzle, so the second time round I had to stack boxes to get up to the first floor in the warehouse to access the roof, but I knew the suspended floor somehow dropped, It was only on the third time round I got the damn thing to drop. Even getting out of the electricity area I've seen most people climb out and jump fence, congrats to the ones who used the switch twice and walked out using the door
And thanks to TheMoon and his exploring exploits I was shown a whole secret area of a map I din't even know about, you've got to do a bit of rock climbing to get there but we were rewarded with the one round of secondary smg ammo, And a nice little bay all of our own to run around in check thing's out.
I'd like to talk about AI in general, and the difference between HL1 and HL2, years ago developers ways of making AI more difficult was to have the enemies aiming capabilities along the lines of 'godlike' as the game got harder. That changed with HL2, killing enimies in HL2 is alot easier than what it was back in HL1.
Also there are so many flaws still in HL2 for instance, take a combine soldier, give him a smg and he sprays and prays, and really you can run circles round them, give them a shotgun and you'll find their accuracy is better, normally If I have to take out a group of combine in a gun fight I take the ones with a shotty down first, cause I know they will be the first to take me down, especially if they are close and catch you on a reload. Even Valve are constatnly trying to improve their npc's (the difference in the strider from hl2 to ep1 to even well ep2) but where Valve lack the npc's they get away with it in variation of npc's over the length of the whole game and yes agreed the situations they create, in which you meet the npc in the map can make things more challenging. But In my opinion, as with all AI it has to be easy enough that you can kill it, wih the weapons you have avalible. They simply didn't allow for co-op in their games. And agreed whooping up the health isn't much fun as it kinda renders the weapons useless, RPG FTW!
Adding tons of npc's isn't that much fun either, and then your playing with the balance of action over visuals with an engine that simply wasn't designed for co-op. Left4dead is probably their first real attempt at having a multiplayer game that has good looks, and AI running about in it at the same time (4 player co-op I might add).
What I'm trying to say is it isn't easy finding that balance...
I think both DaMaN and W0rf0x have shown me that you don't need to have a ton of npc's or weapons to pull off a good map.
Ok I'm losing myself a bit here so back to DaMaN's maps.
As the man said these are only the first 3 maps, so consider how he must use the limited resources avalible over 6-9 maps, You dont wanna see the same npc's in each map? Valve don't let you to the good npc's until the game get's going. And I think the same should apply here. but I do agree that maybe there is room for either:
A) making more of whats already in, i.e more headcrabs, bullsquids, and others that are currently in, general increase the numbers for most encounters. I think the map is playable fps enough to do this, I think there is room even for a third gonarch in the final encounter.
B)Risky but maybe increasing their health a little bit more.
C)And it all depends on what is planned for other maps (I sort of know whats in two of them) but adding new npc's like what others have suggested. But the only npc's I can think of that would suit the first three maps are maybe and I stress maybe the presence of Zombies, Fast Zombies, Poison Zombies (with a compliment of headcrabs), Poison Headcrabs, Boss Antguards (maybe), Snarks in a couple of confined areas, stuff like that.
D)Because the map has this exploring element I think finding medkits is cool although it does slow down the pace of co-op play (can be a good thing) , so I think removing the oc medkit (carried medkit) for the first two, even maybe the third map would be good, and have the oc medkit introduced later when your going to really need it more. Or reduce some of the medkits lying about, or find a balance between the two...
I won't mention the forklift It's fine as it is, but I'll take my hat off to a mapper who gives you a couple of forklifts where you gotta move some boxes from a to b, as a little side objective, maybe two can drive while others stack the pallets, but to even get the forklift drivable is one thing to make it lift stuff another and the pallets would need re-modelling altogether,.... In other words forget it!
The boat, It should stay, oh yes boat, boat, boat!
I'd prefer to have it than not, even if this means adding pods for the passengers to strap them selves in aswell, I know it's not totally realistic, but its the fun factor that wins in this situation.
Having played two of the other maps (only in beta so they may have changed since I last played) You really need to look at all the maps as part of a series, and I know thing's spice up as you go along, and I know that things become a lot more challenging and fun combat wise. You really have more to look forward to in terms of diverse gameplay, aswell as the high standard of geometry!
The main heart ache with this series is that for now you have to make do with the story line in text and not using faceposer and lipsync'ing like he originally planned, I pray that both DaMaN and Hickadam get there wishes and Valve or whoever fixes this.
DaMaN btw if you want I'll let you know all the places I've managed to sneak into the sky box through climbing and serious off route exploring, Although none of them affect gameplay or are obvious, but if you wanted to crack down on allowing people to wonder. I'll let you know where some clipping is needed. And a couple of gfx glitches I spotted although barely noticeable...
Having roughly seen 5 of the maps (which are all still to be tweaked to perfection) I can say that this series (as Fire_cube says) is...Truly Epic!
[fug steps down from soap box and filters quietly back in to the crowd]
EDIT: can't help myself just wanted to say, I also loved the skill puzzles (jumps etc) and I loved the looping areas of the maps, I think there is just the right amount of both in, Back to AI maybe some npcs like the houndeyes would benefit from having a couple of bullsquids present in the encounter.
and finally if you do get face poser working, If your after a voice actor for charles,.... can I apply? I have my middle name as charles? although I'm english not sure if my english voice is what your after , but who knows
'I would probably smarten up before you meet Violet'.
'She has zero tolerance for idiots'.
fug's Obsidian files
fug's Obsidian clips
Obsidian wiki
Obsidian Map Database
'She has zero tolerance for idiots'.
fug's Obsidian files
fug's Obsidian clips
Obsidian wiki
Obsidian Map Database
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Xesum
